Where the hell is that Vick thread?

[Gamplayerx]

Can the non-Jesus followers still think he's scum?

[Bennyhana]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/27/michael.vick/index.html

He found Jesus.  Now we all have to forgive him, just like Jesus has done.

That right there is why I don't believe in Jesus.

[Alice]

Perhaps Jesus was hiding in a dog's intestines?

[Dry then Catch]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/27/michael.vick/index.html

He found Jesus.  Now we all have to forgive him, just like Jesus has done.

That right there is why I don't believe in Jesus.

I don't see how that holds water.  Because a reprehensible person ascribes to a philosophy or religion, that invalidates the entire belief system?


In all fairness, there is the slight possibility that he really has changed.  It doesn't make his actions any less reprehensible, but how can we be so arrogant to claim to know his heart?

Its probably not likely, but in 1000 parallel universes I'd say maybe 7 Michael Vicks really have repented.  993 are just doing it for show and all of them are extremely disappointing and inconsistent for fantasy football purposes.

[dazie]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/27/michael.vick/index.html

He found Jesus.  Now we all have to forgive him, just like Jesus has done.

That right there is why I don't believe in Jesus.

I don't see how that holds water.  Because a reprehensible person ascribes to a philosophy or religion, that invalidates the entire belief system?


In all fairness, there is the slight possibility that he really has changed.  It doesn't make his actions any less reprehensible, but how can we be so arrogant to claim to know his heart?

Its probably not likely, but in 1000 parallel universes I'd say maybe 7 Michael Vicks really have repented.  993 are just doing it for show and all of them are extremely disappointing and inconsistent for fantasy football purposes.

That's awesome.

[Bennyhana]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/27/michael.vick/index.html

He found Jesus.  Now we all have to forgive him, just like Jesus has done.

That right there is why I don't believe in Jesus.

I don't see how that holds water.  Because a reprehensible person ascribes to a philosophy or religion, that invalidates the entire belief system?

It's not that he ascribes to that religion, it's because that religion states that as long as he accepts Jesus Christ as his personal lord and savior, his sins will be forgiven, and no matter how moral my existence is, I'm going to hell if I do not accept Jesus.

I refuse to accept that.  I think it's a load of hooey, and if all the born again evangelicals are going to Heaven, then maybe Hell is going to be a better place anyway.

[swolt]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/27/michael.vick/index.html

He found Jesus.  Now we all have to forgive him, just like Jesus has done.

That right there is why I don't believe in Jesus.

I don't see how that holds water.  Because a reprehensible person ascribes to a philosophy or religion, that invalidates the entire belief system?

It's not that he ascribes to that religion, it's because that religion states that as long as he accepts Jesus Christ as his personal lord and savior, his sins will be forgiven, and no matter how moral my existence is, I'm going to hell if I do not accept Jesus.

I refuse to accept that.  I think it's a load of hooey, and if all the born again evangelicals are going to Heaven, then maybe Hell is going to be a better place anyway.

+

[dazie]

You guys are such Universalists!

[Dry then Catch]

The point is maybe he really did turn his life around, though he was previously an asshole for some reason.  I for one am happy that people can turn their lives around, if its truly because of Jesus all the better. We should of be skeptical and he should be punished for his crime, but to say he is otherwise morally irredeemable is judgemental. 

 

I refuse to accept that. I think it's a load of hooey, and if all the born again evangelicals are going to Heaven, then maybe Hell is going to be a better place anyway.

Yup all Evangelical Christians are horrible worthless horrible people

[Beefy]

The point is maybe he really did turn his life around

Catchr, I know you like to play devil's advocate in these things, and I usually love to read you doing so, but I know that you know Vick is full of crap and found nothing but a statement to help ease the public's scrutiny of his poor behavior.

It's amazing how people seem to only find Jesus after they've been caught doing something deplorable.  It's never while they're washing their car.

Jesus: There for you when it's convenient!

[Dry then Catch]

I know, as I said above there is a 99% chance he is full of it.  I didn't do it just to be contrary, I began to actually ponder that even a minute amount of these shysters might be truthful. Whatt does our society demand for proof of repentance?

[Beefy]

I know, as I said above there is a 99% chance he is full of it.  I didn't do it just to be contrary, I began to actually ponder that even a minute amount of these shysters might be truthful. Whatt does our society demand for proof of repentance?

I think actions that back up the statements, for one.  Not just what the court demands you do, but what you choose to do yourself.

[Bennyhana]

 

I refuse to accept that. I think it's a load of hooey, and if all the born again evangelicals are going to Heaven, then maybe Hell is going to be a better place anyway.

Yup all Evangelical Christians are horrible worthless horrible people

I didn't say that.  I just said that I don't want to spend eternity with them.

[Alice]

You must have read a different Bible than I ever did.


Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.  Romans 3:20-24

Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.  For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.  I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!  Galatians 2:16-21

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.  Mark 2:16

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.  For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  John 3:14-16

All of you and all the people of Israel should know that it was in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarean whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead; in his name this man stands before you healed.  He is 'the stone rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under Heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.  Acts 4:10-12

He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household.  Acts 16:30-31

I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you.  Isaiah 57:12

Through Him, everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from under Moses' law.  Acts 13:39


And then there's the whole chapter of Revelation that explains that salvation keeps you out of hell. 

[eo000]

Do you ever start thinking about heaven, and get pissed off because someone that annoys you to no end will probably be there, and their soul will follow you around, torturing you in heaven as they did on Earth? Like your boss, or the super annoying relative that corners you at family gatherings, asking you about every detail of your life even though you know they aren't listening, they are just waiting you out so they can tell you about the fantastic things they've been doing, like their trip to Japan, and now they act like they are an expert on everything Japanese?

[VikingJuice]

I've gone back and retracked my statements above in the discussion with Alice because I think she makes many points I couldn't fully counter.  The Bible does have a very legalistic tone to it and I think the point I was trying to make became less clear the more I wrote.  My point was that the God I choose to believe in is more focused on the intent of the law rather than the letter of the law-meaning, He will justly judge people upon their own character, goodness, and worth rather than just the scale of saved versus unsaved. 

That said, the Bible does offer what it calls a certain guarantee.  By salvation, it in a way offers a contractually guaranteed ticket into the kingdom.  It says that there is no other way but I tend to think that there might be other ways but they are much less guaranteed.

PS.  I still think that while many people "find" God when it's convenient, only the sincere heart truly repents and will be truly forgiven.  And though God may forgive you in His kingdom, the US Court system doesn't forgive and Vick will still have to serve his time.

[Alice]

I think the hard thing about Christianity and religion in general, is that there are so many different ways to interpret almost everything in whatever "manual" goes along with your chosen religion.  The salvation through believing someone existed is one of the main reasons I am currently a recovering Christian - there's a lot to do with that topic in general that made me rethink my 20 odd years of Christianity. 

I tend to get along better with the Christians that honestly believe their God is a loving and forgiving God who is happier to judge people based on their self worth... but I myself cannot believe that based on the Biblical studies I've done.  I'm not saying you *can't* believe that, it's a great thing that you can, but I can't come to that conclusion simply from what the Bible says... I think it's more of a personal want/need for a merciful God.

There are times that I'm glad we were "forced" to memorize all sorts of crap from the Bible, and then there are times that I get frightened that I still know the general places to look in the Bible for major topics.  Hooray Bible camp!

[Jessie]

I think most religions are people taking things that are/might be in the bible, and twisting them to say what they want to believe.

I guess if you're doing that to make god less vengeful, that's better than using it to kill the gays.

[VikingJuice]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=dw-vicksentencing121007&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Vick sentenced to at least 23 months.  A possibility exists that he will get out early for time served and good behavior, shaving off a few months, but considering that he got caught smoking pot DURING the trial, that may not happen either. 

[Alice]

He sparked in the courtroom?????

[VikingJuice]

He sparked in the courtroom?????

No but while on trial.

[Bishamonten]

Jesus: There for you when it's convenient!

And Bish has a new avatar...

[dazie]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/01/27/vick.dogs.ap/index.html?iref=topnews

Excellent article.

Michael Vick is now in residence about 30 miles from my house.  It's articles like this one, and information like this in particular:

The big dog -- 52 pounds -- is social, people-focused, happy now, it seems, wearing a rhinestone collar in his new home in sunny California.

But as Hector sits up, deep scars stand out on his chest, and his eyes are imploring.

Hector ought to be dead, Nuccio knows -- killed in a staged fight, executed for not winning or euthanized by those who see pit bulls seized in busts as "kennel trash," unsuited to any kind of normal life.

that make me want to drive over to Leavenworth and punch Michael Vick right in the nuts.

[grace]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/01/27/vick.dogs.ap/index.html?iref=topnews

Excellent article.

Michael Vick is now in residence about 30 miles from my house.  It's articles like this one, and information like this in particular:

The big dog -- 52 pounds -- is social, people-focused, happy now, it seems, wearing a rhinestone collar in his new home in sunny California.

But as Hector sits up, deep scars stand out on his chest, and his eyes are imploring.

Hector ought to be dead, Nuccio knows -- killed in a staged fight, executed for not winning or euthanized by those who see pit bulls seized in busts as "kennel trash," unsuited to any kind of normal life.

that make me want to drive over to Leavenworth and punch Michael Vick right in the nuts.

what a cruel bastard

[dazie]

Me or Vick?