Brokeback Mountain

[nishi]

I don't mean to lessen the suffering of the wives.  I'm sure that would be heartbreaking.  I just don't see these men as being full of malice.  That doesn't make them RIGHT, either.

Gloria Steinem wants a word with you.

/stupid movie still isn't opening down here this weekend

i don't think adultery is a feminist issue....

[dc]

for the record, romeo and juliet is often called a touching love story and it's a bloodbath of murder and suicide.

unless they're chikfliks, many many love stories include people being horribly hurt - either by their own actions or the actions of others. which makes them, to my mind, much more realistic. love is often messy and hurtful.

we've gotten the idea that love stories are just these pretty things, and they're not. people die, cheat, get pregnant, become miserable, go to prison, leave family behind....

you can be the protagonists of a love story and still do things that hurt other people. that makes it a more complicated and interesting love story.

I've always taken "love story" to mean "a story which revolves around the love of a couple (or their falling in love), showing the beauty and power of love."

I kinda think that a story where it's shown that love damages so much kinda shits on the concept of love.  I was never a fan of Romeo and juliet.  I guess most love stories include someone getting hurt, but often it's the character designed for you to hate, so you don't care.

i would agree with your definition with one exception - i would remove the word "beauty". the power of love is an astounding thing, but that doesn't mean that all outcomes are good.

i personally find romeo and juliet kind of annoying but it is a classic love story of our western literary canon. and their love, by certain definitions, would be both powerful *and* beautiful. pure.

and the "character designed for you to hate" - that's the part that i think is hollywoodish. in real life, there is no character designed for you to hate.

i think that we might be looking at the difference between fiction with something to say about people in general, and then fiction with some kind of moral lesson.

What's all this crap about "Romeo and Juliet"?  I thought it was one of Shakespeare's better comedies.  And getting hurt?  It didn't hurt me any.

[Beefy]

I don't mean to lessen the suffering of the wives.  I'm sure that would be heartbreaking.  I just don't see these men as being full of malice.  That doesn't make them RIGHT, either.

Gloria Steinem wants a word with you.

/stupid movie still isn't opening down here this weekend

i don't think adultery is a feminist issue....

That's because you're a misogynist. 

[nishi]

I don't mean to lessen the suffering of the wives.  I'm sure that would be heartbreaking.  I just don't see these men as being full of malice.  That doesn't make them RIGHT, either.

Gloria Steinem wants a word with you.

/stupid movie still isn't opening down here this weekend

i don't think adultery is a feminist issue....

That's because you're a misogynist. 

and a misanthrope to boot!!

[Bennyhana]

So, what we can agree on here is that the writer of Brokeback Mountain, despite the critical acclaim of the film, is no better than Shakespeare.

[dc]

So, what we can agree on here is that the writer of Brokeback Mountain, despite the critical acclaim of the film, is no better than Shakespeare.

Actually, Shakespeare was the pen name for Francis Bacon.

[Alice]

So, what we can agree on here is that the writer of Brokeback Mountain, despite the critical acclaim of the film, is no better than Shakespeare.

Actually, Shakespeare was the pen name for Francis Bacon.

Which was a pseudonym for Eugene Andeggs.

[Bennyhana]

So, what we can agree on here is that the writer of Brokeback Mountain, despite the critical acclaim of the film, is no better than Shakespeare.

Actually, Shakespeare was the pen name for Francis Bacon.

Which was a pseudonym for Eugene Andeggs.

It would be funny if he had a brother named Hamilton.

[Jessie]

So, what we can agree on here is that the writer of Brokeback Mountain, despite the critical acclaim of the film, is no better than Shakespeare.

Actually, Shakespeare was the pen name for Francis Bacon.

Which was a pseudonym for Eugene Andeggs.

It would be funny if he had a brother named Hamilton.

Mmm, Hamilton.

[Dry then Catch]

Just got back from seeing it.  (with a girl).

dazie is correct, the film is cinematically engrossing, the setting really pulls you in.  I wish we weren't in a damn old art theatre, so the sounds of the winds of the empty plains, and the crackle of boots on the ground and such were clearer.  The atmosphere is still second to the quiet and not so quiet desperation of the two gay cowboys.  The repression of homosexuality and the denial mentality is the primary issue, though the more esoteric one is how in life we may only get fleeting glimpses and occasional hurried grasps of what makes us happy. 

The only main flaw, was the aging.  Their wives seemed to age realistically (by the end Anne Hathaway seems perfect tacky, rich 70s Texas wife), but putting a mustache on Jake Gyllenhall and muttonchops on Heath Ledger hardly make them seem any older. 

dude this movie would have been way awesomer if it was like 2 chick cowboys.
no male friends can ever go fishing in Wyoming with a straight face EVER again
ZING

what do you think he meant in the last sentence at the end? 

[Jessie]

ignom and I saw this last night.

Spectacular.  This movie was so sad.  The acting was flawless.  The scenery was beautiful.  The story was heartwrenching.  The love scenes were raw and...kinda hot.

I don't think that it glossed over the plight of the wives for a second.  It very clearly showed how this affair hurt them.

I didn't see it as a glorification of any decisions or lifestyle or any of that (as my dad is convinced), but rather was simply a look at the lives of two men who were unable to be who they wanted and with who they wanted. 

Catchr, I'm not sure what he meant at the end, either.

[dazie]

Did you cry?

And yeah- raw and hot.  yow.  YOUCH!

SPOILER: 

I think Ennis meant "Jack I swear" as in "Jack I swear if you were here things would be different, but I think about you all the time and I miss you and I was a dumbass for not taking you up on your offer but now I can't change it so I can only look back and sigh"

[Jessie]

Did you cry?

And yeah- raw and hot.  yow.  YOUCH!

SPOILER: 

I think Ennis meant "Jack I swear" as in "Jack I swear if you were here things would be different, but I think about you all the time and I miss you and I was a dumbass for not taking you up on your offer but now I can't change it so I can only look back and sigh"

I think you may be right.  I just don't know.  He certainly seemed to have regrets.  What about Jack having the other boyfriend?  He seemed so heartbroken when Jack's dad told him about that.  Maybe that's when he really realized how much he had loved him.  I just don't know.  Such a sad, sad movie.

I didn't cry, but I teared up more than once. 

[dazie]

Did you cry?

And yeah- raw and hot.  yow.  YOUCH!

SPOILER: 

I think Ennis meant "Jack I swear" as in "Jack I swear if you were here things would be different, but I think about you all the time and I miss you and I was a dumbass for not taking you up on your offer but now I can't change it so I can only look back and sigh"

I think you may be right.  I just don't know.  He certainly seemed to have regrets.  What about Jack having the other boyfriend?  He seemed so heartbroken when Jack's dad told him about that.  Maybe that's when he really realized how much he had loved him.  I just don't know.  Such a sad, sad movie.

I didn't cry, but I teared up more than once. 

I had tears just GUSHING down my face when SPOILER Ennis went to Jack's parents' house and he found the shirts.  Jack's mom was so nice, it was like she really understood, and Jack's dad was so mean, bringing up the other guy and all.  I just cried and cried.

[Jessie]

Did you cry?

And yeah- raw and hot.  yow.  YOUCH!

SPOILER: 

I think Ennis meant "Jack I swear" as in "Jack I swear if you were here things would be different, but I think about you all the time and I miss you and I was a dumbass for not taking you up on your offer but now I can't change it so I can only look back and sigh"

I think you may be right.  I just don't know.  He certainly seemed to have regrets.  What about Jack having the other boyfriend?  He seemed so heartbroken when Jack's dad told him about that.  Maybe that's when he really realized how much he had loved him.  I just don't know.  Such a sad, sad movie.

I didn't cry, but I teared up more than once. 

I had tears just GUSHING down my face when SPOILER Ennis went to Jack's parents' house and he found the shirts.  Jack's mom was so nice, it was like she really understood, and Jack's dad was so mean, bringing up the other guy and all.  I just cried and cried.

Was I the only one who saw the shirt thing coming the instant that he wondered how he'd left it on the mountain?

[dazie]

Did you cry?

And yeah- raw and hot.  yow.  YOUCH!

SPOILER: 

I think Ennis meant "Jack I swear" as in "Jack I swear if you were here things would be different, but I think about you all the time and I miss you and I was a dumbass for not taking you up on your offer but now I can't change it so I can only look back and sigh"

I think you may be right.  I just don't know.  He certainly seemed to have regrets.  What about Jack having the other boyfriend?  He seemed so heartbroken when Jack's dad told him about that.  Maybe that's when he really realized how much he had loved him.  I just don't know.  Such a sad, sad movie.

I didn't cry, but I teared up more than once. 

I had tears just GUSHING down my face when SPOILER Ennis went to Jack's parents' house and he found the shirts.  Jack's mom was so nice, it was like she really understood, and Jack's dad was so mean, bringing up the other guy and all.  I just cried and cried.

Was I the only one who saw the shirt thing coming the instant that he wondered how he'd left it on the mountain?

No- you weren't.  *grin*

[Jessie]

Did you cry?

And yeah- raw and hot.  yow.  YOUCH!

SPOILER: 

I think Ennis meant "Jack I swear" as in "Jack I swear if you were here things would be different, but I think about you all the time and I miss you and I was a dumbass for not taking you up on your offer but now I can't change it so I can only look back and sigh"

I think you may be right.  I just don't know.  He certainly seemed to have regrets.  What about Jack having the other boyfriend?  He seemed so heartbroken when Jack's dad told him about that.  Maybe that's when he really realized how much he had loved him.  I just don't know.  Such a sad, sad movie.

I didn't cry, but I teared up more than once. 

I had tears just GUSHING down my face when SPOILER Ennis went to Jack's parents' house and he found the shirts.  Jack's mom was so nice, it was like she really understood, and Jack's dad was so mean, bringing up the other guy and all.  I just cried and cried.

Was I the only one who saw the shirt thing coming the instant that he wondered how he'd left it on the mountain?

No- you weren't.  *grin*

Just checking.  Jason said he didn't pick up on it and it was just...obvious to me. 

[dazie]

Did you cry?

And yeah- raw and hot.  yow.  YOUCH!

SPOILER: 

I think Ennis meant "Jack I swear" as in "Jack I swear if you were here things would be different, but I think about you all the time and I miss you and I was a dumbass for not taking you up on your offer but now I can't change it so I can only look back and sigh"

I think you may be right.  I just don't know.  He certainly seemed to have regrets.  What about Jack having the other boyfriend?  He seemed so heartbroken when Jack's dad told him about that.  Maybe that's when he really realized how much he had loved him.  I just don't know.  Such a sad, sad movie.

I didn't cry, but I teared up more than once. 

I had tears just GUSHING down my face when SPOILER Ennis went to Jack's parents' house and he found the shirts.  Jack's mom was so nice, it was like she really understood, and Jack's dad was so mean, bringing up the other guy and all.  I just cried and cried.

Was I the only one who saw the shirt thing coming the instant that he wondered how he'd left it on the mountain?

No- you weren't.  *grin*

Just checking.  Jason said he didn't pick up on it and it was just...obvious to me. 

That's cuz he's a guy!  Leaving something laying about like that isn't too unusual!  *lol*

[Jessie]

I wonder if there's any way to read the short story without subscribing to The New Yorker online.  I can't seem to find it anywhere else.

[Dry then Catch]

why didn't they move to somewhere they could be accepted like San Francisco or something.

[dazie]

why didn't they move to somewhere they could be accepted like San Francisco or something.

Difficult to ranch in SF.

[Infobahn]

why didn't they move to somewhere they could be accepted like San Francisco or something.

Difficult to ranch in SF.

They have a Cow Palace in SF, don't they? Can't be that hard if they are royalty.

[Dry then Catch]

why didn't they move to somewhere they could be accepted like San Francisco or something.

Difficult to ranch in SF.

Jack Twist had plenty of tractor money.  He would have invested it in some sort of low-yield and high long term growth fund, while Ennis worked as a longshoreman.  They would get a small loft in Hayes Valley.  Brunch every first Sunday of the month.

Well thats what I would do if I had  a gay cowboy lover I longed for. 

[dazie]

why didn't they move to somewhere they could be accepted like San Francisco or something.

Difficult to ranch in SF.

Jack Twist had plenty of tractor money.  He would have invested it in some sort of low-yield and high long term growth fund, while Ennis worked as a longshoreman.  They would get a small loft in Hayes Valley.  Brunch every first Sunday of the month.

Well thats what I would do if I had  a gay cowboy lover I longed for. 

They could live next to Christo and George.  Nice neighborhood.  Yup.

Catchr- question...  SPOILER When Ennis is on the phone with Lureen, and she's telling how Jack died, there was that flash of him getting the crap kicked out of him.  Do you think that is what really happened or is that just what Ennis was afraid happened?

[Dry then Catch]

Good question, I initially wondered that myself as well.  I'm pretty sure now that it is what really happened.  There is no precedent in the movie for a POV "imagination scene", the only other flashback was true reality.  It is obvious he met an untimely end (from Lureen's stilted conversation and I hear it is told outright in the short story), so why would they live it ambigious?