The Astros winning a baseball game is bigger news than 30,000 dead people

[Alice]

Oh, sorry.  I just skimmed to be perfectly honest - tried to pick up main points.

But yes, if people are turning bright red from screaming at a sports game - they have anger issues that should be thoroughly examined.

[Bennyhana]

* Bennyhana takes out  stopwatch, mirror and color swatches, to make sure he doesn't overdo the screaming over anything irrational.

[VikingJuice]

Just because you can't understand that certain outlet doesn't make it wrong or invalid.

People keep inferring that I am saying that cheering or celebrating is bad.  If anyone would like to take the time to go back and read what I posted, I at no time stated this.

What I did state, and will continue to state, is that there are limits to rational involvement, and therefore reaction, to things like sports, movies, whatever.  There is a point where it shouldn't go past.  Where it shouldn't be that important.  When I see someone screaming, not cheering, but outright fucking screaming, for minutes on end, red faced, crying, like out of something out of a Greek mythological tragedy... over a game... a movie... I think it's wrongheaded.  I think they need a fucking reality check.

I don't care if people cheer.  I wouldn't go to the movies if I didn't feel the same way.  It's all about involvement and suspense of reality.  I'm saying there is something either as a human or in Western society that encourages us to take these things much farther than we should, and this is true especially in sports.  I've never seen someone react to a movie like I heard those guys yesterday, but I have seen repeated instances of people doing it over sports.  Come jump in the amazingly wrongheaded Texas A&M vs. UT argument sometime - it's one of the biggest, most obnoxious wastes of oxygen in this state, and I'm counting Tom DeLay.  An enormous amount of irrational animosity and energy over nothing.  Self-generating bullshit.

I have not said don't cheer.  I did not say don't bond or have a good time.  I am being met with a bunch of kneejerk reactions from people who aren't paying attention to my point.  Which is:

There.  Ought.  To.  Be.  Limits.  And they should be self-imposed. 

But again, most people don't spend time thinking.  They just do.  And so, if someone wants to overreact in such a manner, it is their right to do so.  But then I have every right to call them an asshole with perspective problems for doing it.

I read every bit of your original writing and each of the subsequent responses.  Your point may have been about limits but that's not at all the way it came across.  It came across as that of a pompous ass who doesn't understand that people see in sport the same that you see in art and who is pointing the finger of condemnation from a perilous perch on a high horse.

I still think you're being pompous to a degree, but I at least understand your point now.

Certainly, in ALL things, even exuberant expression, there SHOULD be limits.  No one, even by my rationale as you defined it, should be breaking things and rioting and pillaging and such.  Though I have broken a great many things in my repeated frustration over my beloved Dolphins, I too realize the need for restraint.

And as far as people needing a reality check, I agree, we could ALL use that.  But let's be honest, reality sucks sometimes and fantasy and vicarious living is a pretty damned fun diversion sometimes.  Otherwise, why would you ever see a film? Or listen to a song, or dance or sing or whatever?  And some might argue, since we're discussing things that need limits, that your DVD/Music collection is in the same vein of things run amouk and in need of reality checks.  I'm not condemning, I just pointing out that your argument of needing limits and being self-imposed goes in other directions.

We ALL have our "thing" that we get obsessive and a little nuts about Beef.  Mine has always been sports, football to be exact, and most anything related to it.  Your's just isn't the same thing.

[Beefy]

Having a hobby or a collection or a habit is not the same thing as overreacting.  You are not inherently in need of a reality check just because you have one of the above.  When you act like you were just responsible for the death of your child when a movie sucks or a game is lost, then you are need of a reality check.

If it is pompous to call out people who overreact as loons, then I'm cool with being pompous.  Hell, I'm proud of it.  Being that stimulated by a game is just crap.

Now, that being said, I think we can all agree that the sports world is unique in that it actually encourages such behavior, as opposed to... I don't know... comic lovers or movie lovers or people who like knit.  It is behavior that almost everywhere else would be frowned upon.  Yet not in the sports world.  Is it that sports encourages it?  Or that the sports culture just allows for it?  Is it an extension of that same urge to compete that I touched upon with the UT vs. A&M feud?  Do we have some internal need to be odds with someone, no matter how ideologically shallow the foundation of that struggle is?  Is that compulsion a human trait, or a societal trait?

I wonder if Nishi has any thoughts about how the monks view conflict of this nature.  I bet it's vastly different than our daily perceptions.

[VikingJuice]

Having a hobby or a collection or a habit is not the same thing as overreacting.  You are not inherently in need of a reality check just because you have one of the above.  When you act like you were just responsible for the death of your child when a movie sucks or a game is lost, then you are need of a reality check.

If it is pompous to call out people who overreact as loons, then I'm cool with being pompous.  Hell, I'm proud of it.  Being that stimulated by a game is just crap.

Now, that being said, I think we can all agree that the sports world is unique in that it actually encourages such behavior, as opposed to... I don't know... comic lovers or movie lovers or people who like knit.  It is behavior that almost everywhere else would be frowned upon.  Yet not in the sports world.  Is it that sports encourages it?  Or that the sports culture just allows for it?  Is it an extension of that same urge to compete that I touched upon with the UT vs. A&M feud?  Do we have some internal need to be odds with someone, no matter how ideologically shallow the foundation of that struggle is?  Is that compulsion a human trait, or a societal trait?

I wonder if Nishi has any thoughts about how the monks view conflict of this nature.  I bet it's vastly different than our daily perceptions.

They probably don't give a crap about sports.  But don't cross them in dominoes or penuckle.  You'll see one seriously ruffled monk!!

[cnamon]

This makes me think....

You think the world of sports and fan behavior is out of control.  What do you think of people who wait in line for hours, days or even weeks just to see a movie or get a book?

[VikingJuice]

This makes me think....

You think the world of sports and fan behavior is out of control.  What do you think of people who wait in line for hours, days or even weeks just to see a movie or get a book?

Also really obessive and nuts.  Having said that, I've waited in those movie lines, I've waited in the ridiculous NFL Experience lines, and also do the waiting in Toy Store Lines for new SW toys.  In retrospect, none of those proved to be worth my time except the 3 SW film and that was only because I just waited a couple hours.

[Alice]

Having a hobby or a collection or a habit is not the same thing as overreacting.  You are not inherently in need of a reality check just because you have one of the above.  When you act like you were just responsible for the death of your child when a movie sucks or a game is lost, then you are need of a reality check.

If it is pompous to call out people who overreact as loons, then I'm cool with being pompous.  Hell, I'm proud of it.  Being that stimulated by a game is just crap.

Now, that being said, I think we can all agree that the sports world is unique in that it actually encourages such behavior, as opposed to... I don't know... comic lovers or movie lovers or people who like knit.  It is behavior that almost everywhere else would be frowned upon.  Yet not in the sports world.  Is it that sports encourages it?  Or that the sports culture just allows for it?  Is it an extension of that same urge to compete that I touched upon with the UT vs. A&M feud?  Do we have some internal need to be odds with someone, no matter how ideologically shallow the foundation of that struggle is?  Is that compulsion a human trait, or a societal trait?

I wonder if Nishi has any thoughts about how the monks view conflict of this nature.  I bet it's vastly different than our daily perceptions.

They probably don't give a crap about sports.  But don't cross them in dominoes or penuckle.  You'll see one seriously ruffled monk!!

Pinochle.

[Beefy]

This makes me think....

You think the world of sports and fan behavior is out of control.  What do you think of people who wait in line for hours, days or even weeks just to see a movie or get a book?

If the people in that line were howling and acting like what I heard last night, then yes they're overdoing it.  If they're just waiting in line patiently, I don't see the comparison. 

I don't have the time to wait for weeks in a movie line.  I think it's pretty ridiculous.  However, to my knowledge, none of those people are acting like they just took on 42 ninjas and defeated them all without a scratch using only a loofah. 

Sports culture supports exaggerative behavior.  In a way that is very unique.  I'm just wondering what the foundation of that is.

[meredith]

However, to my knowledge, none of those people are acting like they just took on 42 ninjas and defeated them all without a scratch using only a loofah.

That's an interesting description of Bish's O face.

[cnamon]

They way I see it, it is the same thing, but on different scales.  I will never knock someone for waiting in line to see a movie or taking the day off so they can be first in line for the latest Harry Potter book.  I will never knock the person who paints his face and wears a Cheesehead or a dress to the game.  If they are not affecting me, I don't care.  Do I think both are weird?  Hell yeah.  Will I more than likely call you a dork?  Yes (meant in a joking way of course).  But I will try to understand why you care so much...I won't make a generalized opinion.

[Beefy]

They way I see it, it is the same thing, but on different scales.  I will never knock someone for waiting in line to see a movie or taking the day off so they can be first in line for the latest Harry Potter book.  I will never knock the person who paints his face and wears a Cheesehead or a dress to the game.  If they are not affecting me, I don't care.  Do I think both are weird?  Hell yeah.  Will I more than likely call you a dork?  Yes (meant in a joking way of course).  But I will try to understand why you care so much...I won't make a generalized opinion.

I think you're looking at the outer behavior and I'm looking at the inner processes more.  I don't care if you paint your face at the game at all.  Yeah, I'll probably snicker to myself, but whatever.  Knock yourself out.  What I'm talking about is what is driving you to scream so hard your veins are bulging and people come running to see who you just ran over.  I'm talking about overreacting versus cheering.  Some of those Harry Potter folks actually role play, and it weirds me out a bit.  But then, as long as they understand it's fantasy, I guess to each their own.  When the extreme - and I recognize they are the minority - sports fans start their howling, it's not fantasy for them - no human is going to emit that sound and not believe in why they are doing so.

I'll go you one further - if I don't know you, I couldn't give less than a shit why you're interested in something.  It's never going to affect me, probably.  And if you're just another fan, you'll be drowned out with all the others I am sure.  Cheering is healthy and fun.  That's not what I am addressing. 

I'll give you an example on the reverse side of the spectrum.  I went to the first showing of LOTR: Fellowship of the Rings at midnight the night before it came out.  I waited several hours to get in with a coworker.  There was nothing particularly rabid going on.  Everyone was exicted and laid back.  Nothing obnoxious or unreasonable.  When we got in  the auditorium, however, and the start time approached, the guy sitting next to my coworker was screaming.  I mean really fucking screaming.  There was already a lot of noise and anticipatory shuffling around going on, which is to be expected.  But for this guy, it was like he was about to eat his first baby.  It was totally obnoxious and disrespectful and unnecessary.  Thankfully, where many others failed, my coworker, being a burly and irritable ex-marine, put a stop to the dude's asshattery.  That guy was a tool for letting his behavior go too far.  The rest of the audience, talking and excited and having waited for hours, were just fans.

[Bennyhana]

Lots of things cause people to lose control to different degrees-Sports, Movies, Pain, Orgasms, Drugs, Grief, Jokes, etc.  Telling someone that they can only lose control for certain things sort of defeats the purpose of losing control.

If you've never lost control of yourself due to something POSITIVE, I truly feel sorry for you.

[Alice]

If you've never seen someone lose control of themselves due to the MACARENA, I truly feel sorry for you.

[Beefy]

Lots of things cause people to lose control to different degrees-Sports, Movies, Pain, Orgasms, Drugs, Grief, Jokes, etc.  Telling someone that they can only lose control for certain things sort of defeats the purpose of losing control.

If you've never lost control of yourself due to something POSITIVE, I truly feel sorry for you.

If you're calling what those guys did normal, reasonable, or positive, you don't need to feel sorry for me.

I don't think they lost control.  They howl because it is just THAT important to them.

[nishi]

Having a hobby or a collection or a habit is not the same thing as overreacting.  You are not inherently in need of a reality check just because you have one of the above.  When you act like you were just responsible for the death of your child when a movie sucks or a game is lost, then you are need of a reality check.

If it is pompous to call out people who overreact as loons, then I'm cool with being pompous.  Hell, I'm proud of it.  Being that stimulated by a game is just crap.

Now, that being said, I think we can all agree that the sports world is unique in that it actually encourages such behavior, as opposed to... I don't know... comic lovers or movie lovers or people who like knit.  It is behavior that almost everywhere else would be frowned upon.  Yet not in the sports world.  Is it that sports encourages it?  Or that the sports culture just allows for it?  Is it an extension of that same urge to compete that I touched upon with the UT vs. A&M feud?  Do we have some internal need to be odds with someone, no matter how ideologically shallow the foundation of that struggle is?  Is that compulsion a human trait, or a societal trait?

I wonder if Nishi has any thoughts about how the monks view conflict of this nature.  I bet it's vastly different than our daily perceptions.

the sports world is unique in the way that it encourages that behavior. the only other person that i've recently seen publicly behave that way because they were happy is tom cruise..... god knows no one is trying to encourage him.

i would perhaps argue that people who take on the life of characters - like the trekkies - are equally passionate about something just as imagined, and they are not usually people held up as examples of good social skills.

it's interesting that that kind of behavior - short of looting and rioting and death - is "expected" around sports (and no one is really surprised by the looting and rioting and death, they just prepare for it and try to prevent it). maybe it's because knitters don't bring beer.

now, about the monks. first - their game is soccer. they're all about the world cup and try unsuccessfully to pretend that they're not thrilled when china loses. but that's the young monks.

the older monks - they would say that that kind of passion is dangerous no matter what. that attachment is suffering. and it's one thing to struggle with the suffering associated with our attachments to others, to our family, to our children, to our poor understanding of who we are. it's entirely another thing to generate attachment for things as far outside ourselves as sports or books or movies. that by allowing ourselves to become so attached to things so far outside our lives or even our field of influence, we turn our minds in exactly the opposite direction of where we should be turning them. it's like training for a marathon, but then deciding that you could probably run a mile in spike heels with no ill effects.

now, i will say that senior monks would not be the most fun people to watch a soccer game with. on the other hand, they don't have to go out of their way to find enormous fun - it's just right there. you know how the dalai lama always looks like he is happier than you've ever been in your whole life? well, it's not because he backs the astros.

[Gamplayerx]

you know how the dalai lama always looks like he is happier than you've ever been in your whole life? well, it's not because he backs the astros.

[nishi]

you know how the dalai lama always looks like he is happier than you've ever been in your whole life? well, it's not because he backs the astros.

i know. i totally cracked myself up.

[nishi]

[Beefy]

You need to post in this thread more often. 

I think there are some interesting philosophical and societal things to observe and discuss if people would stop acting like I am pointing a finger at them in particular.  It's no different from the gun thread in my mind - I don't like guns, but I understand others do, and that it's the minority that makes a bad name for the rest of the gun owners.  But you take a shot at that minority and everyone suddenly feels persecuted.  You can discuss and insult the fringe without insulting everyone else.  You can discuss the larger societal implications without having to go on the defensive.  Unless we're turning into Fark, in which case I will cease posting anything other than babbling.

the sports world is unique in the way that it encourages that behavior. the only other person that i've recently seen publicly behave that way because they were happy is tom cruise..... god knows no one is trying to encourage him.

i would perhaps argue that people who take on the life of characters - like the trekkies - are equally passionate about something just as imagined, and they are not usually people held up as examples of good social skills.

People who believe they are Klingons and Vulcans are loons.  They may not be as outwardly obnoxious as the guy down the street screaming himself hoarse, but they both clearly could use a little more "reality" (though that's a debate for a different thread - why is reality considered such a swell thing to strive for?).  Also, you're far more likely to come across a sports idiot than a Star Trek idiot in your daily life, simply due to the way that sports has premeated human culture.  You don't see too many Star Trek loons outside of conventions or documentaries.

I don't see what is so awful about prioritizing the level of emotional involvement in our interests and our lives.  To me, it's perfectly natural that to run over a child in a car, or to have that Crohn's pain get that bad again, would be a reasonable time to howl like life was ending.  I simply don't see a movie or a game or something as being worthwhile enough to froth at the mouth that badly.  And, in my opinion, people that do have reactions like that to trivial matters are acting like jerkoffs.  I think it's a sign of a real lack of perspective as to what is worth feeling that strongly about.  Is it hurting me?  Probably not.  But just because I'm not hurt doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion on it.  Them's the breaks - we're all opinionated, even if we don't share those opinions. 

Also, not every opinion has to be of understanding and acceptance.  I have a critical opinion of the KKK.  Fuck those guys.  I hope they get run over by a bunch of tanks.  Fuck politicians.  And fuck people who can't assign worth in a respectible and adult manner.

I think one reason the sports loons stand out a bit more is due to what is normally accepted as okay behavior at sporting events.  In a movie, the normal behavior is quiet, so a guy screaming is a loon.  At a sports game - well, most mainstream sports anyway - the norm is screaming and cheering, so to stand out beyond that in the realm of overreacting you REALLY have to be acting like an ass.  And so you're gonna get plenty of attention when you do.

[VikingJuice]

They way I see it, it is the same thing, but on different scales.  I will never knock someone for waiting in line to see a movie or taking the day off so they can be first in line for the latest Harry Potter book.  I will never knock the person who paints his face and wears a Cheesehead or a dress to the game.  If they are not affecting me, I don't care.  Do I think both are weird?  Hell yeah.  Will I more than likely call you a dork?  Yes (meant in a joking way of course).  But I will try to understand why you care so much...I won't make a generalized opinion.

By this, I really hope you mean the "hogs" in the stands at Redskins games and only from the years 1981 to 1991.  From then on, it's just been plain sad!! 

[cnamon]

They way I see it, it is the same thing, but on different scales.  I will never knock someone for waiting in line to see a movie or taking the day off so they can be first in line for the latest Harry Potter book.  I will never knock the person who paints his face and wears a Cheesehead or a dress to the game.  If they are not affecting me, I don't care.  Do I think both are weird?  Hell yeah.  Will I more than likely call you a dork?  Yes (meant in a joking way of course).  But I will try to understand why you care so much...I won't make a generalized opinion.

By this, I really hope you mean the "hogs" in the stands at Redskins games and only from the years 1981 to 1991.  From then on, it's just been plain sad!! 

It is not sad these days...I think it is still awesome.  But then again, I am odd.

[VikingJuice]

They way I see it, it is the same thing, but on different scales.  I will never knock someone for waiting in line to see a movie or taking the day off so they can be first in line for the latest Harry Potter book.  I will never knock the person who paints his face and wears a Cheesehead or a dress to the game.  If they are not affecting me, I don't care.  Do I think both are weird?  Hell yeah.  Will I more than likely call you a dork?  Yes (meant in a joking way of course).  But I will try to understand why you care so much...I won't make a generalized opinion.

By this, I really hope you mean the "hogs" in the stands at Redskins games and only from the years 1981 to 1991.  From then on, it's just been plain sad!! 

It is not sad these days...I think it is still awesome.  But then again, I am odd.

It's sad because those original guys were supporting one of the best offensive lines in all of football history.  The OL today is mediocre and underperforming at best, evidenced by Clinton Portis' low productivity the last 2 seasons.  But I digress.

[Beefy]

On a more personal note, I was pretty fucking irritated last night when I got home from my walk.  Why?  Because I've been in that aforementioned pain.  I remember vividly what it felt like.  I had no control over anything, including my body.  I had no position I could get in, no pill I could take to ease that suffering.  The only thing I could manage or control was howling and screaming, because it was all I had.  I will always remember what drove me to those moments.  When I hear a similar sound come out of someone over a sports game (or whatever hobby or interest you like), it is my natural reaction to wish a piano to fall on them.  Hard.  With lots of splinters.

That's my perspective.  And I don't feel bad about it.

This thread could have been about any extremist fanatic.  It just so happened to come up on the night the Astros actually won a baseball game.

[nishi]

You need to post in this thread more often. 

I think there are some interesting philosophical and societal things to observe and discuss if people would stop acting like I am pointing a finger at them in particular.  It's no different from the gun thread in my mind - I don't like guns, but I understand others do, and that it's the minority that makes a bad name for the rest of the gun owners.  But you take a shot at that minority and everyone suddenly feels persecuted.  You can discuss and insult the fringe without insulting everyone else.  You can discuss the larger societal implications without having to go on the defensive.  Unless we're turning into Fark, in which case I will cease posting anything other than babbling.

well, this is an interesting topic to me. my mother is a rabid university of louisville basketball fan. i grew up with a kind of sports mania that i find rather repellant - i'll get to that in a minute. and kentucky is home to the totally stupid and bitter rivalry between the university of kentucky and the university of louisville. one of those "my teams are UL and whoever is playing UK" states. my mother regulalyr complains that the louisville paper favors UK blah blah blah blah blah...

my mother displays enormous amounts of animosity towards people who are UK fans. i would almost say "she hates them", because her reaction is that extreme. if it's someone she knows (i'm thinking of a cousin of hers, who she likes very much and knew before basketball was an issue), then she kind of tolerates it. but in a way that indicates that she secretly thinks the person is an idiot. if she doesn't like them, then their basketball identity makes them a very bad person as far as she is concerned. some of you have met my mother. she's a perfectly nice lady when she isn't being insane.

so. we all have our things that we judge people on. since i have a kneejerk reaction to stuff i grew up with, i think people who dislike others SOLELY ON THE SPORTS TEAM THEY SUPPORT are pretty stupid (which means that i dislike people based on how they handle sports). my family was also full of racists - and my mom kind of still is - and so i have a similar, if not more intense, reaction there (which means i'm *prejudiced* against people who are racists....).

i know what you're talking about with that primal stuff beef, and it is different, i think, from the way most sports enthusiasts, including those in this thread, respond. it's not just yelling and jumping up and down and getting drunk and being either really really happy or really really sad. that primal thing is different. i've seen it, and it freaks me out. it's letting a part of yourself live or die based on something that someone else is doing that has nothing to do with you personally.

and i think beef and i are talking about it in slightly different ways, but it comes from the same spot. that extreme - and by that i mean completely over the top - kind of response to sports - or anything, i see it every once in a while in terms of politics or even religion, although that's harder to find - well, beef is saying it's not in proportion, and he finds that a little disturbing and really annoying. it makes me uncomfortable because their investment in the sport is serving like some kind of magnet, and is picking up little psychological metal filings that has nothing to do with liking the astros.

i think where you're being not as clear, beef, and where people are maybe misunderstanding is when, for example, you're saying that there are lots more of "those" kinds of fans or that we run into them more than we do trekkies. at that extreme end - i don't know. if trek conventions were televised as often as sporting events, then we'd see it. star trek exists and continues because it has regular fans - the same reason that sports are televised. trek conventions exist because of extremes. since sports are already on television or at regular large events, the extremists become part of the crowd and so we see them more often. but you're saying both that it's extreme and that it's common, and that's where people are becoming confused. what you're describing, in your original post, isn't necessarily about the packers fans that paint themselves green and sit shirtless at lambeau field in january.

i think the reason that i keep thinking about death during this topic is that, in our culture, men are not really permitted to howl and wail even as women might be briefly tolerated doing following a monumental loss. you guys are all probably cringing just imagining seeing someone, a man, do that. well - unless you're really on top of things, that energy has to go somewhere. there are ways that psychology is like physics - conservation of energy and all. just because you don't express a feeling doesn't mean you don't have it.

the image that keeps coming into my head if from a time that i worked at hospice. i had been working with the kids of this family while the dad/husband was dying of lung cancer. he was a high school graduate, chain smoker, divorced and remarried, kids ranging from 7 - 19. the 19 year old was married and had a 3 year old. very very low income, they lived in a horrible part of town. he threatened to haunt his children - and i mean this literally, not like he was joking - if they buried him in anything other than his UK sweats and if they dressed up for his funeral. i don't know what his actual job had been, i'm sure something that paid poorly, but he had been a volunteer fire fighter for 15 years.

i don't know if you've ever been to the funeral of a fireman, but the casket is taken from the funeral home to the cemetary on the firetruck. the casket is entirely handled by firemen. once the body is prepared and laid out, there is a formal 'guard' - one of his fellow firemen on each end of the casket - at all times. after the funeral is over, the entire company files past the casket one at a time, right before the family says their last goodbye. then the firemen close the casket, carry it to the truck, and strap it to the top.

i have never ever been to a more difficult funeral, and i barely knew the guy, beyond the argument we had where i strongly suggested that he stop talking about haunting his children. and it was so awful because there were at least 45 men in that room that were absolutely heartbroken and who had no earthly idea how to express that. the funeral was very sad. but what i found heartbreaking was watching these men flailing hopelessly inside their grief because they had no place to *put* it.

and i think that that is the kind of thing that contributes to - not causes, necessarily - insane behavior around sports. it's not the only thing, certainly. but i think it's part of it. the unlived life and all.