A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do. That is the Army Cadet Code of Honor that is to govern all behavior. So when the Army portends to have a policy of letting certain players who get drafted, serve a later duty so that they may capitalize on possible riches of professional sports while acting as a publicity man for the service, you'd think they'd implement it consistently or not at all. You'd be wrong.
The Detroit Lions, upon being assured by Army brass of this young man's eligibility to play, went ahead and drafted him and spent money to sign and train him. He attended all the pre-camp activities known as OTA's (organized team activities) and was all ready to start training camp. He gets called in the day before and notified that the Army changed it's policy almost three weeks before, but only decided to notify him then.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3520706 (http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3520706)
I'm not sure why kids who play pro sports should get any different treatment than other soldiers to begin with.
my opinion - he committed himself to the military when he accepted their educational training....now it's time to pay them back for what they gave him.
waa waa waa....he knew what he was doing when he signed the enlistment papers...stop whining and follow through with your commitment.
Yeah... I mean sure the army did it in a dickish way, but well, they're dicks.
It sounds like the kid is being pretty mature about it, but I don't really feel sorry for him.
If you enlist, you enlist. I don't care how well you can throw a ball, that shouldn't keep you home when my brother's going to get shot at.
The Army are dicks for lying, but anyone old enough to enlist who doesn't believe that the military industrial complex is going to lie to them and abuse their trust is pretty naive if you ask me.
The article is vague on details like whether or not someone authoritative from the Army gave a verbal commitment on the matter, and whether or not there was
any sort of agreement in writing about this. Did he see a written policy at all?
He probably got too excited and didn't do his homework on the matter. Life can suck like that, but he's following through with his commitment with little complaint. Why not be sympathetic about it?
Quote from: Jessie on August 08, 2008, 09:34:21 AM
It sounds like the kid is being pretty mature about it, but I don't really feel sorry for him.
If you enlist, you enlist. I don't care how well you can throw a ball, that shouldn't keep you home when my brother's going to get shot at.
Will I get to apply your logic for apathy if your brother gets stop-lossed? :/
Quote from: hatt on August 08, 2008, 10:39:01 AM
The article is vague on details like whether or not someone authoritative from the Army gave a verbal commitment on the matter, and whether or not there was any sort of agreement in writing about this. Did he see a written policy at all?
He probably got too excited and didn't do his homework on the matter. Life can suck like that, but he's following through with his commitment with little complaint. Why not be sympathetic about it?
Quote from: Jessie on August 08, 2008, 09:34:21 AM
It sounds like the kid is being pretty mature about it, but I don't really feel sorry for him.
If you enlist, you enlist. I don't care how well you can throw a ball, that shouldn't keep you home when my brother's going to get shot at.
Will I get to apply your logic for apathy if your brother gets stop-lossed? :/
Sure, but since you know Jessie and therefore can actually empathize with her, it would be somewhat dickish.
Let's not pretend there isn't a difference between people we know and people we don't.
Sorry, what? I was out driving and cussing at the other drivers. ;D
Quote from: hatt on August 08, 2008, 10:39:01 AM
The article is vague on details like whether or not someone authoritative from the Army gave a verbal commitment on the matter, and whether or not there was any sort of agreement in writing about this. Did he see a written policy at all?
He probably got too excited and didn't do his homework on the matter. Life can suck like that, but he's following through with his commitment with little complaint. Why not be sympathetic about it?
Quote from: Jessie on August 08, 2008, 09:34:21 AM
It sounds like the kid is being pretty mature about it, but I don't really feel sorry for him.
If you enlist, you enlist. I don't care how well you can throw a ball, that shouldn't keep you home when my brother's going to get shot at.
Will I get to apply your logic for apathy if your brother gets stop-lossed? :/
Let's compare apples to apples here.
If my brother was subject to a stop loss, but thought he shouldn't have to be, because of some talent - say he's in a band and gets signed to a major record label - I wouldn't think he should get out of it for that.
I can still think that the stop loss policy is bullshit, and that nobody should be subject to it, but some special talent you have (especially one that can't possibly help the military in some other fashion) shouldn't make you any better than any of the other enlisted men and women.
Quote from: Jessie on August 08, 2008, 12:54:20 PM
Let's compare apples to apples here.
If my brother was subject to a stop loss, but thought he shouldn't have to be, because of some talent - say he's in a band and gets signed to a major record label - I wouldn't think he should get out of it for that.
I can still think that the stop loss policy is bullshit, and that nobody should be subject to it, but some special talent you have (especially one that can't possibly help the military in some other fashion) shouldn't make you any better than any of the other enlisted men and women.
Is it about following through on your commitments, or is it about not being special? I didn't say anything about having talents, delaying enlistment, or any of that. When someone gets the rug pulled out from under them, do you sympathize?
Quote from: hatt on August 08, 2008, 01:14:56 PM
Quote from: Jessie on August 08, 2008, 12:54:20 PM
Let's compare apples to apples here.
If my brother was subject to a stop loss, but thought he shouldn't have to be, because of some talent - say he's in a band and gets signed to a major record label - I wouldn't think he should get out of it for that.
I can still think that the stop loss policy is bullshit, and that nobody should be subject to it, but some special talent you have (especially one that can't possibly help the military in some other fashion) shouldn't make you any better than any of the other enlisted men and women.
Is it about following through on your commitments, or is it about not being special? I didn't say anything about having talents, delaying enlistment, or any of that. When someone gets the rug pulled out from under them, do you sympathize?
Maybe I worded it wrong, "Sucks for him, I'm sure, but it was justified."
Is that better?
Quote from: Jessie on August 08, 2008, 08:16:14 AM
I'm not sure why kids who play pro sports should get any different treatment than other soldiers to begin with.
Your's and Saph's points are valid here but at a few different steps in the process; during recruitment to the academy, after his first 2 years playing, and before he was drafted by a professional organization, the Army REPEATEDLY stated that the conditions would be one way and then changed them. I've never heard whether any documentation was involved or not. I'd imagine the Detroit Lions would have required some form of official position before they invested a few hundred thousand dollars in the guy.
Certainly the Army is going to do whatever it wants-whenever it wants-especially in times of war and under a presidency that makes laws and rules malleable matters depending on the circumstance.
But he still got shafted based on the exact circumstance. I commend him on taking the high road on the matter. If I were the Lions, I'd sue the government for lost monies invested in the guy because they operated in good faith according to what they were told. Sure, they have lots of money, blah blah blah, but would this be any different if a guy like Donald Trump had employed the kid for a few hundred thousand dollars trusting the word and honor of the Army?
I agree that he got shafted (kind of) and the Lions got shafted out of money, I just don't think it ever should have been an issue, because it was a bullshit idea from the get-go.
Quote from: Jessie on August 08, 2008, 03:50:32 PM
I agree that he got shafted (kind of) and the Lions got shafted out of money, I just don't think it ever should have been an issue, because it was a bullshit idea from the get-go.
Stuff like that, can, if done right, with the right person, serve as publicity for the Army. Given how recruiting numbers have been, they probably need all the good pub they can get.
I can't imagine any other reason they might have for ever allowing that sort of deal.
I like pie.
In my opinion, the Army missed a great recruitment tool here. Wouldn't he be used better as a public figure for the army, and how being in the army will help your future opportunities, than as just another soldier?
I've yet to find one person that's joined the military that hasn't been lied to about what their enlistment entails. It is the way of the military. For someone not to get something in writing from the government? Dumbass.
Quote from: Alice on August 09, 2008, 01:39:53 PM
I've yet to find one person that's joined the military that hasn't been lied to about what their enlistment entails. It is the way of the military. For someone not to get something in writing from the government? Dumbass.
Apparently though, even when you get something in writing, it doesn't really count. I've read that a lot of the stoplossed soldiers actually had stuff in the contract they signed saying that specifically they can't be called back for any reason and then bam, something changes. It's really shitty.
Joining the military is like selling your soul to the devil. It's great at first, but eventually, you have to burn in hell.
Quote from: Jessie on August 09, 2008, 09:59:21 PM
Joining the military is like selling your soul to the devil. It's great at first, but eventually, you have to burn in hell.
I take exception to that. My parents are fine people who were both Marine officers. I had uncles in both the Coast Guard and the Air Force. Ursus' great aunt (98 years old and still going) was a Marine during WWII, his grandfather was in the Navy in the Pacific theater, saved from invading Japan when the US bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
We have people in this forum who are veterans, and, even if I believed in hell at all, I don't believe they would burn there.
In this day and age, every single person who joins the military does so of his or her own free will. If you don't fully understand the possibilities of what can happen if you do sign up, perhaps you shouldn't.
Do you think that I meant that vets are evil and deserve to burn in hell? Surely not.
I just mean that the army is sneaky like the devil and makes you think you're getting a good deal when you're really getting fucked.
Quote from: Jessie on August 09, 2008, 11:45:46 PM
Do you think that I meant that vets are evil and deserve to burn in hell? Surely not.
I just mean that the army is sneaky like the devil and makes you think you're getting a good deal when you're really getting fucked.
I think she just doesn't know what an analogy is.
DEAL WITH DEVIL:HELLFIRE as MILITARY ENLISTMENT:________
dazie could've been drinking ;)
but seriously people, if you really think the military - as far as recruiting and retention practices - fucks over the majority of people or anything near it, you're subject to observation bias.
I know a LOT of soldiers, and I've never heard one of them say that they got what they were promised. It's common knowledge in the army community as I know it that you can't trust a recruiter.
Also, I worked in THE recruiting hq for the Army for a while. Believe me that they have very targeted practices, and they prey on the weak and needy.
Quote from: hatt on August 10, 2008, 12:08:35 AM
but seriously people, if you really think the military - as far as recruiting and retention practices - fucks over the majority of people or anything near it, you're subject to observation bias.
You honestly believe that recruitment officers don't lie through their teeth while targeting gullible teens? You believe they disclose everything that is about to happen to these kids that are willing to sign their lives away?
I don't think it's observation bias. I think it's the truth.
In a timespan of 2 years, 14 cases were brought up against the Navy in Chicago alone for criminal concealment in recruitment processes.
Quote from: hatt on August 10, 2008, 12:08:35 AM
but seriously people, if you really think the military - as far as recruiting and retention practices - fucks over the majority of people or anything near it, you're subject to observation bias.
(http://i35.tinypic.com/2u4rlgj.jpg)
Quote from: Beefy on August 10, 2008, 09:09:08 AM
Quote from: hatt on August 10, 2008, 12:08:35 AM
but seriously people, if you really think the military - as far as recruiting and retention practices - fucks over the majority of people or anything near it, you're subject to observation bias.
(http://i35.tinypic.com/2u4rlgj.jpg)
First giggle of the day.