The Astros winning a baseball game is bigger news than 30,000 dead people

[Beefy]

I don't deny most of what you just said, but I'd bet 50 bucks that neither you nor anyone else at your local sports bar emit wails like the ones I heard yesterday.  At the end of the day, sports are just sports, and if they are the only reason in ones life to emit primal, soulwrenching screams (which, for an "evolved" species, shouldn't be a necessity in the first place) then I stand by the fact that a redistribution of priorities is in need.

There are far, far more inherently meaningful moments in life that, theoretically. deserve that kind of emotional conduct.

That said, those dinks wanna make fools out of themselves, it's fine by me.  I reserve my right to mock, laugh, and consider them dinks for it.

Besides, VJ, you damn well this is Houston... they probably didn't even give half a shit about the Astros until a week ago.

[Beefy]

You know, now that I've had my pills and taken the dog for a walk, my head is clearer and I have to flag VJ's post.  I have to take an exception to writing blank checks for stupidity.

I can honestly say that the only times in my life where I have ever emitted (or wanted to) the kinds of howls I heard yesterday were when my Crohns was so bad, so inflamed, that it had swollen and hit the nerve endings in my back and my entire torso and insides felt like they were on fire.  The kind of pain that no pill could help, but I just had to endure without choice.  And, for me, at least, that was legitimate reason to howl on that level.  So, admittedly, when I see some yahoo doing something similar over something as ultimately meaningless as a baseball game, I can't help but take exception to it.

I've heard the sports are a celebration of life and a way to channel humanity's urges argument many times before.  I think there are some superficial legitimacies to it.  But for me that's where it ends. 

Humans are competitive by nature, yes.  When it is channeled positively, it ends up in something meaningless like sports (yes it may feel good at the end of the day, but whoever wins the game means absolutely squat in the overall scheme of things).  When it is channeled negatively, you get genocide, religious persecution, war, etc. 

By saying that we need avenues to act in these overemotional ways - by justifying riots and fights and overreactions to trivial bullshit - well, like I said, it's a blank check to act like a moron and not conduct yourself in a respectable way.  And, in truth, it shows a real lack of priorities if that's what you get most worked up over.

Again, this isn't about being a fan and cheering on your team or being happy they win.  This about overreacting to it.  This is about allowing those feelings to go too far into realm of ridiculousness.  It's*a*fucking*game.

People seem to get this overarching sense of personal hubris attached to sporting events and teams in this country.  95% of people seem to channel this in at least a reasonable manner (You wanna paint your face, fine, but I reserve the right to chuckle about it; you wanna dress up like a jedi, fine, but I reserve the right to chuckle about it).  The other 5% get into fist fights, gun fights, riots, etc. as a result of some game.  That is NOT reasonable behavior from an elevated species like our own.  We ought to be able to prioritize and say, well, it's great we won, and it'll be fun to talk about tomorrow, woowoo rahrah let's get a beer and a drumstick.  But is acting like an animal or some kind of primal thing a reasonable reaction to an ultimately superfluous thing?  I don't think so.  In fact, I think it's irresponsible and shows a real lack perspective.

We're lucky in that our species has the option to prioritize importance.  We can look at life and experience and formulate what is and isn't grounds for happiness, despair, etc.  Our society, especially in Texas, thinks it's okay to act fools over sports.  I see it as misplaced emotional venting excused as rational behavior because it's easier than actually admitting that it isn't really that important.  And that goes for pretty much all hobbies - I like movies, but I can reasonably state that they're not very critical to existence.  I tear up at the end of Star Wars 3, because I have a reasonable emotional interest in the 5 films that came before it - as do people who follow a sports team through a season - but when I walk out of the theater I don't howl and moan and give myself a heart attack over the end of the series.  I can look down at my little brother and understand that the film may have moved me, but there are way more important things in life.

Nobody who isn't under some dire circumstance has to act like that.  Nor, I argue, do we as humans need to.  Many of us do, and then excuse it with varying degrees of bullshit.  Just because we can doesn't mean we should, you know?

If the people yesterday had just been clapping and yoohooing, I wouldn't have said anything at all.  But when I can hear you bursting your veins from a couple of streets over and hear the strain in your voice as though you were giving birth, you need to calm the fuck down and reprioritize.

[Beefy]

Of course, as usual, all this is a reflection of how I ideally would like to look at humanity.  Reality is different, and not at all ideal. 

If JimBob and Daryl wanna give themselves an aneurysm over a home run, I say thanks Darwin. 

[VikingJuice]

Beef:

I've heard the sports are a celebration of life and a way to channel humanity's urges argument many times before.  I think there are some superficial legitimacies to it.  But for me that's where it ends. 

See, you miss the point-again.  If that's where it ends for you, then you don't fully grasp the way in which sports exhilarates our society.  Of course it's hubris, of course it's vicarious living, of course we should be living our own lives with that sort of gusto.  But many of us, myself included, have lives that for the most part are ho-hum, occasionally depressing, very stressful and often short of what we want it to be.  Sports is a chance to cut loose from those restraints and just run wild for a few hours.

I'd dare to say, that you've never, or perhaps very seldom, had sports get into your blood in a way that you wanted to jump through a brick wall with excitement or on the down side, wanted to smash something big and expensive with a brick or a bat with frustration.  That's the way it is for some people.

For you to not understand is reasonable.  For you to act with disdain, okay there too.  For you to slam these people with contempt and arrogance because you "don't get it" is just as ridiculous as them doing it.  And it makes you look like you have a stick up your ass.

Now as far as the yahoos in your neighborhood, sure, they probably didn't give two shits about the Astros until they made the playoffs.  They're the same asshats that cheer for San Francisco when they're winning, Green Bay when they are, and so on and so forth.  We have many names for these dinks: Bandwagoners, Team of the weekers, "real" fans, and of course, dipshits.

But for you to lump every fan who hollers like a maniac in celebration, because you don't see it the same way, into some innane redneck moronic category, I think it says as much about you in the negative as it does about them.

[Alice]

* Alice does a Sox win dance.

[meredith]

That is NOT reasonable behavior from an elevated species like our own.

The man who told you humans are an elevated species has been sacked.

[ignom]

Otis invented the elevator.

[meredith]

Otis invented the elevator.

I thought he just made the first autobrake for elevators...

[ignom]

Otis invented the elevator.

I thought he just made the first autobrake for elevators...

I just know he had something to do with them because his name is always in the crossword puzzle.

[meredith]

Otis invented the elevator.

I thought he just made the first autobrake for elevators...

I just know he had something to do with them because his name is always in the crossword puzzle.

The elevators at work are Otis elevators.  If you call 317-259-6440 you can listen in on our elevators.

[Beefy]

Beef:

I've heard the sports are a celebration of life and a way to channel humanity's urges argument many times before.  I think there are some superficial legitimacies to it.  But for me that's where it ends. 

See, you miss the point-again.  If that's where it ends for you, then you don't fully grasp the way in which sports exhilarates our society.  Of course it's hubris, of course it's vicarious living, of course we should be living our own lives with that sort of gusto.  But many of us, myself included, have lives that for the most part are ho-hum, occasionally depressing, very stressful and often short of what we want it to be.  Sports is a chance to cut loose from those restraints and just run wild for a few hours.

I'd dare to say, that you've never, or perhaps very seldom, had sports get into your blood in a way that you wanted to jump through a brick wall with excitement or on the down side, wanted to smash something big and expensive with a brick or a bat with frustration.  That's the way it is for some people.

For you to not understand is reasonable.  For you to act with disdain, okay there too.  For you to slam these people with contempt and arrogance because you "don't get it" is just as ridiculous as them doing it.  And it makes you look like you have a stick up your ass.

Now as far as the yahoos in your neighborhood, sure, they probably didn't give two shits about the Astros until they made the playoffs.  They're the same asshats that cheer for San Francisco when they're winning, Green Bay when they are, and so on and so forth.  We have many names for these dinks: Bandwagoners, Team of the weekers, "real" fans, and of course, dipshits.

But for you to lump every fan who hollers like a maniac in celebration, because you don't see it the same way, into some innane redneck moronic category, I think it says as much about you in the negative as it does about them.

In terms of living in reality, as I said before, if JimBob wants to act the fool, go ahead.  I have every right to call him out for acting like an idiot.

In terms of idelism, I couldn't disagree more.  Again, there is a difference between happy cheering and the level of stupidity I am describing.  Having a ho-hum life is an excuse, nothing more.  What you fail to see is that we as humans have no inherent need to act that outrageously.  By your rationa,e it's okay for people to riot after a game because they have nothing to be happy about.  I couldn't disagree more.  Now, was what these guys were doing yesterday at the expense of anyone else?  Well, its arguable, though if I can hear them from two streets away I bet it is at the expense of their neighbors.  Regardless, there is such a thing as limits, and prioritizing, and there OUGHT to be limits to how fricking agitated one becomes over trivial matters.  No one is saying you can't cheer or be happy.  I'm saying there is such a thing as too much.  And for me, if you're standing, red faced, screaming over and over, like you just won the lottery, over the meaningless actions of someone else, and you are making your presence known for blocks around.  Yeah, you deserve my disdain.  You can cheer and be happy without overdoing it.

In fact, I saw lots of people outside talking about it when I was walking the dog.  People were excited.  There was a positive vibe in the air.  It was pretty cool.  Except for the jerk-offs two streets over.

It's just another example of people coming up with a plethora of excuses for behavior that they want to justify, even if they maybe shouldn't.  Hell, most people don't even think long enough to come up with an excuse.

And hey, people can think negatively about me all they want.  I'm still going to look at the next guy who is overreracting like that and call them an ass for it.  Because I think they are.

[Jessie]

You guys sure talk a lot.

[Beefy]

You guys sure talk a lot.

I'm actually shouting at my computer as I type.

Why is it no one else has an opinion on this matter other than VJ and I? 

[cnamon]

I have an opinion, but I choose to wait until I can find the right words to post it.

[nishi]

if they are the only reason in ones life to emit primal, soulwrenching screams (which, for an "evolved" species, shouldn't be a necessity in the first place)

i thought that was an interesting idea.

outside of the whole sports discussion, i would say that being an evolved species does not negate the necessity for primal feelings and primal expressions. do i think they should be associated with sports? no. but i don't think that our evolution outranks our level of feeling. in some ways, it amplifies it, because the feelings we have are so much more complicated.

it's an intriguing thought. does our evolutionary level and our level of civilization mean that we should either not have or not express primal feelings?

on the opposite end of sports, i think of death and grief, since that is where i have seen (and experienced) feelings that i would consider 'primal', but maybe my definition of that is different than yours.

[ignom]

Og make fire.

[Beefy]

if they are the only reason in ones life to emit primal, soulwrenching screams (which, for an "evolved" species, shouldn't be a necessity in the first place)

i thought that was an interesting idea.

outside of the whole sports discussion, i would say that being an evolved species does not negate the necessity for primal feelings and primal expressions. do i think they should be associated with sports? no. but i don't think that our evolution outranks our level of feeling. in some ways, it amplifies it, because the feelings we have are so much more complicated.

it's an intriguing thought. does our evolutionary level and our level of civilization mean that we should either not have or not express primal feelings?

on the opposite end of sports, i think of death and grief, since that is where i have seen (and experienced) feelings that i would consider 'primal', but maybe my definition of that is different than yours.

Thank you for your response.

That's a good question.  I guess for me, who internalizes a lot, it's hard for me to see someone acting at the level of what I heard yesterday and justifying it, for almost any reason.  You had to have heard these guys - it was WAY over the limits, into the extreme. 

I suppose one could wail like that for reasons of distress.  Like I said, I have done so out of pain, which pisses me off all the more that people would act like that over something stupid.  The next time you have a real issue worth screaming about, let me know.

[meredith]

Screaming helps them win...



right?

[nishi]

if they are the only reason in ones life to emit primal, soulwrenching screams (which, for an "evolved" species, shouldn't be a necessity in the first place)

i thought that was an interesting idea.

outside of the whole sports discussion, i would say that being an evolved species does not negate the necessity for primal feelings and primal expressions. do i think they should be associated with sports? no. but i don't think that our evolution outranks our level of feeling. in some ways, it amplifies it, because the feelings we have are so much more complicated.

it's an intriguing thought. does our evolutionary level and our level of civilization mean that we should either not have or not express primal feelings?

on the opposite end of sports, i think of death and grief, since that is where i have seen (and experienced) feelings that i would consider 'primal', but maybe my definition of that is different than yours.

Thank you for your response.

That's a good question.  I guess for me, who internalizes a lot, it's hard for me to see someone acting at the level of what I heard yesterday and justifying it, for almost any reason.  You had to have heard these guys - it was WAY over the limits, into the extreme. 

I suppose one could wail like that for reasons of distress.  Like I said, I have done so out of pain, which pisses me off all the more that people would act like that over something stupid.  The next time you have a real issue worth screaming about, let me know.

and about the sports - yes, i'm a freudian, so i think that people sublimate a lot of things into sports. the less outlet for regular feelings you have, the bigger and freakier those feelings are going to get - so when you have an "opportunity" to express them, there you go.

again, i'm thinking about death (a regular event, but more specific in this thread). for instance, when the news is showing some horrible report about some unimaginable death of a child - sometimes you see parents there respond in that kind of primal way. i'm using what i hate - televised tragedy - because i think that when people express things like that, it is usually an extremely private moment and so we don't see it. i think our culture is more repressive about it - we've inherited a certain amount of the british stiff upper lip. when children in india or pakistan are hauled dead from earthquake rubble, or pulled from an exploded vehicle in iraq, then you see women - and men - screaming. wailing. ripping their clothes, tearing their hair, scratching their faces. i don't have a child, but i can certainly imagine myself responding in exactly that way in the same situation - not in the 'nice' american way of quiet tears or speechless shock.

and i know that there have been a few times in my life where i have been in enough emotional pain - again, almost exclusively associated with death and loss - that i have literally screamed myself hoarse. i feel confident that i could have outdone your neighbors.


what just now occurred to me is that i wish that, when someone made those kinds of noises - out of happiness, loss, shock, anger - that it had to do with something that was really *theirs*. that that passion wasn't just about watching the actions of others. that may be more of what you're talking about, beef. i think people are absolutely capable of that kind of feeling - i find it frustrating if they're directing it at someone else's life rather than their own.

i yell while watching a hockey game - but not nearly as loudly as i've yelled about other things.


on the third hand..... are sports, like music, like film, like art, like theatre, like literature - transformative? are we *supposed* to put ourselves in the middle of that, let those warriors fight on our behalf (like we let them do in movies?), feel their losses, their injuries, their victories? i think yes, but not to the extent that it eclipses our own ability to act and feel in our own lives. i think that's why so many people watch the olympics, even if they're not usually sports fans (and i suspect it's why things like water ballet remain "sports").

i need more coffee.

[cnamon]

I am going to attempt to type what I am thinking.

I feel like sports is an escape.  It is also something that is used for bonding.  I remember watching football with my dad, cheering when he cheered, being dissapointed when they lost (and being Redskins fans, that was a lot).  I yell, jump up and down and cheer.  I yell at the screen when something goes wrong.  Hell, I have hugged perfect strangers in a bar when we won.  Sports are a major part of my life.

With you, movies and television are big to you.  You like to analyze, pick apart, and think about the meanings, how they are filmed, who is doing what...a rabid sports fan may not understand you.

Sometimes people are extreme when showing emotions over a sport, but to a lot of people, it is a representation of what their life is about...it brings them back to the days where after the game, they would go out in the yard and do the game winning play in their backyard like they were in the game.  They would do the commentary and for that one moment in time, everyone would see them being the one that won it all.  I knew about football before I knew about fashion.  That is always something special to me.  My dad was so excited when he found out how close I was to RFK Stadium...it reminds him of his childhood.  Sports were an escape from a not so good family life. 

[Jessie]

The only time that I have ever truly screamed, just a noise, not screaming words, was during the week between finding out I was losing my baby and actually going through with it.

I've never experienced any joy that brought me anywhere near that.

[Alice]

Cheering and crying can be very cathartic experiences.   Some people experience catharsis through books, movies, other people... and some people experience this through sports.  While it may seem odd to you, it could very well be their outlet of emotion.  Just because you can't understand that certain outlet doesn't make it wrong or invalid.

[Jessie]

I had a ton of fun watching the Final Four and I didn't even care who won, really.

[Alice]

I had a ton of fun watching the Final Four and I didn't even care who won, really.

I did.

Then I proceeded to do a dance with my friend Colin. 

No wailing or screaming though.  Although, there were TONS of fireworks last night.

[Beefy]

Just because you can't understand that certain outlet doesn't make it wrong or invalid.

People keep inferring that I am saying that cheering or celebrating is bad.  If anyone would like to take the time to go back and read what I posted, I at no time stated this.

What I did state, and will continue to state, is that there are limits to rational involvement, and therefore reaction, to things like sports, movies, whatever.  There is a point where it shouldn't go past.  Where it shouldn't be that important.  When I see someone screaming, not cheering, but outright fucking screaming, for minutes on end, red faced, crying, like out of something out of a Greek mythological tragedy... over a game... a movie... I think it's wrongheaded.  I think they need a fucking reality check.

I don't care if people cheer.  I wouldn't go to the movies if I didn't feel the same way.  It's all about involvement and suspense of reality.  I'm saying there is something either as a human or in Western society that encourages us to take these things much farther than we should, and this is true especially in sports.  I've never seen someone react to a movie like I heard those guys yesterday, but I have seen repeated instances of people doing it over sports.  Come jump in the amazingly wrongheaded Texas A&M vs. UT argument sometime - it's one of the biggest, most obnoxious wastes of oxygen in this state, and I'm counting Tom DeLay.  An enormous amount of irrational animosity and energy over nothing.  Self-generating bullshit.

I have not said don't cheer.  I did not say don't bond or have a good time.  I am being met with a bunch of kneejerk reactions from people who aren't paying attention to my point.  Which is:

There.  Ought.  To.  Be.  Limits.  And they should be self-imposed. 

But again, most people don't spend time thinking.  They just do.  And so, if someone wants to overreact in such a manner, it is their right to do so.  But then I have every right to call them an asshole with perspective problems for doing it.